Talkin' Crap

Manure Logistics: Moving Nutrients, Not Just Manure

• Dan Andersen • Episode 28

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In this episode, Dan Andersen and Laura Pepple, director of supply chain and logistics at Puck Enterprises Inc., explore how modern dragline manure systems efficiently transport manure. They discuss key design factors like application rate, equipment, and field distance, while emphasizing proper planning. 

Dan Andersen:

Hello, and welcome to Talkin' Crap, a podcast by Iowa State University Extension and Outreach. This institution is an equal opportunity provider. For the full non-discrimination statement or accommodation inquiries, go to www.extension.iastate.edu/legal. In this podcast, we discuss insights into the science, technology, and best practices surrounding manure management. Our objectives are to build awareness about the challenges farmers and the broader agricultural industry face around manure and to demonstrate solutions and areas of innovation. Hello, and welcome back to another Talkin' Crap podcast. I'm Dan Andersen, and I'm joined this time by Laura Pepple of Puck to talk about flow, friction, and flexibility around modern dragline manure application systems. Dragline manure systems can move manure quickly and efficiently from farm to field, but they also come with engineering challenges that many people never think about. In this episode of Talkin' Crap, we're going to sit with Laura and discuss how dragline systems are designed to handle widely different manure types and application rates, from dairy manures up to 20,000 gallons an acre down to deep pit swine manure, where we might be trying to hit 2000 gallons an acre. We explore how hose velocity, keeping salad suspended, pump sizing, system flexibility, and how farms can improve manure logistics to maximize efficiency during the narrow windows when manure can actually be applied. So, I'd like to start, Laura, with first, welcome you. Thanks for joining me today. And for our audience, could you tell us a little bit about your background, and then maybe your roles in Puck, and how they've evolved.

Laura Pepple:

Sure, thanks for having me, Dan. Background, I've got two degrees from Ag Engineering at Iowa State, a bachelor's and a master's, and went and spent five years at the University of Illinois as a livestock extension specialist, and then about 11 years ago switched gears and started working for Puck in Manning, Iowa, at their headquarters there. I've had a number of different roles, but currently the director of supply chain, overseeing all production operations as it relates to supply chain.

Dan Andersen:

And one thing I really appreciate about Laura is she worked at Illinois as an extension educator, so she sort of has that background in how do we have to talk about manure, training people on regulations, but then really applied moving into industry of what do we actually do to make those things work.

Laura Pepple:

That's exactly right.

Dan Andersen:

Perfect. And then just to get the conversation rolling here, for people who've maybe seen a drag line, or maybe even those who've never seen a drag line, could you talk a little bit about sort of what they are, how they work, and then what are you trying to accomplish when you think about a drag line system.

Laura Pepple:

Sure. So, the easiest way to think about a drag line is maybe your garden hose, right, that you hook up to your house, you've got a spigot that you turn on, you hook a hose up to it, and it comes out the other end. You do something with it, right? You hook it up to a pressure washer, or you know, some sort of nozzle, right? Dragline is really no different. It's a temporary pipeline that allows us to convey liquids from point a to point b in the most efficient manner, without causing infrastructure issues, so you don't have to worry about driving back and forth on the road, heavy, heavy weights, reduced compaction in the field, and so what Puck does is we manufacture really the whole system. It's a turnkey system, when you get it from Puck, you, we've got agitators, lead pumps, we manufacture the hose down in North Carolina, we manufacture the couplings that go on the hose down in Dothan, Alabama, and then the booster pumps and the pumps in between, and the toolbars in the swing arm that mount onto the tractors and the toolbars at the end, so it really is a turnkey system that we're able to provide, and and we've been manufacturing now for about 25 years, so you know we've been on the on the leading edge of innovation in the industry and trying to continue that that pathway forward.

Dan Andersen:

So a few things, one, I love the garden hose analogy, when I have some 4-H kids and we do a little manure thing, that's exactly what we do, a garden hose, and we pretend we're a drag line, because it sounds silly, but it really is pretty similar.

Laura Pepple:

It is.

Dan Andersen:

And then 25 years, that's a long time in the business. What's the biggest change you've seen from where maybe Puck started to where we're at today?

Laura Pepple:

Well, I think if you, if you look back at the original dragline systems, right, Cadwell came, Cadman actually came out with them in the 90s, at least, you know that's that's the first ones I remember, and they were running four and five inch hard line hose, and in the early 2000s we transitioned to lay flat hose, and when, when I pull up the data for Puck, because one thing that makes Puck unique is, is we still land apply manure today. Last year we applied around 450 million liquid gallons across two different states, so this is very much an industry that we're, we're a part of and committed to, and so we started with six inch hose at the dairy, you know, as a crow flies about a half hour from our shop, and today we run 10 inch hose. And and have been installing 12 inch pipeline at that location and so the one of the challenges that you we have in the drag line industry is is how do you keep up with with that increased volume right you have to you have to be able to keep liquid flowing at a certain velocity in those those pipelines and that lay flat hose to be able to navigate solids build up, right? You know, when you, when you operate at these dairies, a lot of them are still sand bedded, right? So you have sand lane manure, and you've got to, you got to figure out how, one, to keep it in suspension to get it out of the lagoon, and to keep it moving fast enough to the point of where you're applying that you don't get build up in your pipe, and so it's, it's definitely something that we've, we've seen in general over the last 20 years. I think you've seen the industry shift from, you know, six to 800 gallon a minute to we've got customers out there running, you know, north of 6000 gallons a minute, depending on the size of pumps that they're operating, as well as that main line, so it's been a, it's been a fun ride, but it's been a fast ride, right, to to navigate the challenges and the growth and the need for efficiency gains on the on the application side to be able to keep up with what customers are looking for.

Dan Andersen:

Perfect. And then I think there was a really interesting part there. You've actually increased the flow rate, the capacity of moving this manure at eight to 10 times what we started with 30 years ago. So it was a garden hose, and now it's a garden hose I can barely hold on to, right?

Laura Pepple:

Yeah, yeah, you definitely go from the, you know, the garden hose to the fire hose real fast, right? So that's definitely, definitely one of the challenges or opportunity, right, depending on on which foot you want to stand on there, but it's it's definitely an opportunity that that Puck takes on every day to get all the benefits that we can, and and keep, keep things going as efficiently as possible for our customers.

Dan Andersen:

Perfect. And then I wanted to talk a little bit about how we're actually sizing the system. Where do I start? Is that the barn? Is that the field I'm applying in? Like, what is dictating the first choice you make?

Laura Pepple:

There's a couple of things that that I'd consider in sizing a system. The first one is, what's your application rate? Right, so how big is your tractor? What's your application rate? What type of toolbar are you trying to pull? And then how far away are you, and how many gallons do you have to move? Really, those are the three main questions, right? So, if you're talking a double wide finisher, you know where you're going to have six, 700,000 gallons that you need to move, that may be a uniquely different system than a dairy that's got 25 million gallons that you need to, or 100 million gallons, or you know, these super sized dairies that are coming online in the next couple of years. It's a completely different strategy in regards to efficiency and how many gallons you need to get in the ground, and then the timeframe at which I need to get it in the ground, because as, as we see year over year, those windows are narrowing, right, and it's going to be really hard to meet the demand of manure application and stay within that time frame that makes the nutrient value of the manure as high as possible.

Dan Andersen:

I love that answer, and you know, I push for good timing all the time, but the challenge is we still make 16 billion to 20 billion gallons of liquid manure in Iowa every year, get some rainwater incorporated in there as well, and I want you to get it done in fewer days, because I want it in that window, and we need to move all the manure yet, no matter what I say.

Laura Pepple:

That's right, that's right.

Dan Andersen:

Okay, one of the things you mentioned, so we've talked a little bit about in the field, we need to match what we want to supply to that tractor, and then we talked a little bit about trying to keep things in suspension in the hose. Could you just comment a little bit on why velocity is important for that, and then maybe how that relates to friction.

Laura Pepple:

Yep, as an engineer, as both of us being engineers, I think we could nerd out on this topic for quite some time and probably go a little too deep for the audience. But at Puck, we have a general rule of thumb: we try and keep things moving regardless of the size of the hose or the pipeline. We want things moving at least 12 feet per second, we found just over our own practices over the years, and backed up with with some math that that works right. So that's why when you're evaluating the volume that you need to move, how fast you're moving it, and what size that pipe or lay flat hose is, it's important that we're validating that things are moving at least that fast, otherwise that's when you start to see sand settling, and when you, when you see sand settling, and you've got a, you've got a lay flat hose on the ground, the inside diameter that hose, as that sand settles, as you can imagine, gets smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller, and cleaning out a lay flat hose that's full of sand is not a fun job. It gets really heavy, really fast, and as we pig the line, it just doesn't work as well, right? So it's, it's important to us from an operational efficiency perspective that we are sizing these systems correctly, so that you don't have to deal with those types of challenges.

Dan Andersen:

Yeah, and definitely getting the sand out is no fun. The impact that it has on hose, it's much easier to keep sand in suspension than it is to try and resuspend it and get it out of there.

Laura Pepple:

That's exactly right.

Dan Andersen:

Okay, and then a lot of commercial applicators have you moved to dragline systems, and one of the things I think they want to do is be responsive to their customer, and their customer could be a 5000, 10,000 head dairy, their customer could be a guy who owns a 4800 head deep pit swine finishing barn. How do you make systems that are flexible enough to handle both? Where are we at on that challenge?

Laura Pepple:

I'm going to tell you that, in especially with these larger dairies coming online, depending on how custom applicators are setting themselves up, it's going to become a bigger challenge for the industry, because what we're seeing, at least on the dairy side, is is a lot of these guys are transitioning to, you know, C18, right, these these seven 800 horsepower units, and and then to take that that C18 and then use it at a finishing operation doesn't really work all that well, so it just depends on on the mix of your operation and how you've got it set up and how many gallons of each you need to do. Now with Puck, we're no different. Our Puck application team, they still do swine, they still do sow facilities, they still do dairies, and what we found is it really depends on the infrastructure that are at those farms. So in our particular case, you know, we have a fairly large dairy that we apply at that has smaller pipelines, and we use it's, you know, we match the pipeline with our hose, and we use nine liters all day long. Nine liters, our nine liters are very versatile in regards to being able to transition from both dairy and swine, so it really, it really is important that when folks are evaluating the equipment that they're putting in their fleet, that they're making the right selections to stay versatile in that regard, because the challenge that we're starting to see on the swine side is the application rates are getting so low because the nutrient concentrations and the water conservation efforts of the producers are they're doing a great job, but they're reducing that that water volume so much that our concentration levels are going up, which drives the application rate down by acre, and so now all of a sudden you know when you get those target rates from from your nutrient planner, you're starting to see, you know, 2500 gallon an acre, 3000 gallon an acre, and from a drag line perspective, we can, we can still do that, but the math in doing that, if you don't have the right type of system, gets a little tough. That means we're driving tractors through the field really, really fast, especially if you don't have a pool type toolbar, so there are definitely challenges there that we're experiencing, but it all comes down to, you know, what's right for that operator. It could be that, you know, you see these guys that transition to only dairy only, and there's reasons for that, right? I mean, we're they're all business owners, and so being efficient in the assets that they're buying, how they're utilizing them, and then the whole challenge of moving right, so you know you've got a 2500 head finisher, and you're going to get that done, you know, in six to eight hours, right now, and now you got to go, you got to pick all your hose back up, you got to get your whole crew loaded back up, and then you got to move on down the road and do it all over again. Yeah, where you know a larger dairy or even mid-sized dairy, you're going to be there for a hot minute, right? And so you don't have the same inefficiencies introduced on on that side. So we are seeing quite a few of the larger guys transition to those larger systems and dedicating themselves really to the dairy side, but I don't know that that's going to be everybody in the industry, right? You know, we, we love our swine guys, and they're still, there's still plenty of manure there to apply. It's just the balance, right? You got to have that that system balance that still allows you to be versatile and and and achieve those low application rates, especially on the finishing side, to be successful.

Dan Andersen:

Perfect. And we obviously love water conservation, we love manure that's nutrient rich.

Laura Pepple:

Absolutely.

Dan Andersen:

And then, like you mentioned before, your sort of customer demand of who do I have to apply for, who do I want to apply for, how many gallons are dedicated to dairy, how many gallons are swine finishing manure, sort of dictates where you're going to operate most of the time.

Laura Pepple:

Yes,

Dan Andersen:

And that really gets to your point of how do I pick the right equipment for most of my cases and still have enough flexibility to get back to the other cases.

Laura Pepple:

That's exactly right. And at least that's that's how our application manager is really set up, set up his line to be successful. We even on the larger dairy side, we're still only running thirteens, we're not.. we didn't.. we haven't transitioned to eighteens, haven't really found a need for it, I at least at this point in time, but it does sound like that's something that he's considering for next year. We used to run C18s and he backed off to C13s, and and found found that he's still able, at you know, the 37, 3800 gallon a minute that he, that he can run at those dairies that have the infrastructure to support that high flow rate, he gets the work done that he needs to. Now, there's a lot of planning that goes in to being able to accomplish it and still remain efficient in those operations, and this goes for swine or dairy, right? So, as a custom applicator or custom operator, it's really important that the planning part doesn't get skipped. It's just as important as the application side. So, knowing, being in contact with whoever's running the nutrient management plan for that operation, knowing what fields you're applying to, how you're getting to those fields, where your hose is laid out, how you're going to do it, and staying ahead of it really maximizes the efficiency of utilizing a drag line system.

Dan Andersen:

Yeah, and I think that's a big thing. You've been collecting some data on efficiency that you've shared with me before, and I think efficiency is extremely important to making this work. What are some things that you found that make you more efficient, maybe at a dairy farm?

Laura Pepple:

So a lot of it at a, at a dairy farm, you know, you take the speed of the applicator, it's dramatically different than than a swine, just based upon the volume that you're trying to get into the ground, so the applicator driver may be driving, you know, let's say two, three mile an hour, the third man that's on that crew is your hose mover, and when he, when he doesn't need to be moving hose for that applicator tractor, there's no reason why you shouldn't be going and setting up your next set right, or being in contact with with that farm manager to say, okay, what fields opened up, right? That's one of the challenges that we get into, especially in late September and October applications, is you know we have this field open, but the next field's three miles away, and it's only the next one open, and, and balancing, you know, those challenges, so that you're not creating those inefficiencies with, with having to move things all the time.

Dan Andersen:

And then one of the things I see on Facebook, related to manures, people ask, How do I lay out this drag for a field, or how should I be doing this set? What are some of the things that you've found historically that once you've done a field, you learned something? How do you keep those records, so next year you can gain the knowledge you've used on that field the first time?

Laura Pepple:

A lot of it is, we use a lot of the same crews at the same locations, right? So you know they come back year after year, and that crew's done that, that facility, that's not always possible, right? You know, given labor constraints industry-wide, that's not, that's not always going to be a good answer. One of the things that makes Puck unique is we do have our telemetry-based control system, Lightspeed, does have a, an online platform that would allow you to document those things, so you can go in and pull up that farm information on that Lightspeed platform, and you can note where culverts, where are my pipeline inlets, you know, you can lay out your drags and how you approached it. Where did I put my booster pump the year before, which is really helpful, especially if you have a lot of turnover and transition on the labor side, that you know it's a resource, it takes a little bit of time in the off season, right, to set all that stuff up, or maybe you've got some time while you're sitting in that field and you can go in and do it right there in the, in the tractor, in the, in the cab, because all you need is internet to be able to access it. But yeah, it's really helpful from that perspective. We, before having Lightspeed, Jake Doyle, our application manager, and I had went and put manual, actual like manual binders together for each of our, for each of our sites. He still has them in his office, where it had all that information, right? So we tried our best to compile it to make it as easy as possible, but it all goes back to that planning stage, right, and being prepared for the sites that you know you're gonna, you're gonna apply at.

Dan Andersen:

And especially knowing what equipment you need, any challenges with layout, knowing what the culverts look like, and what you might be facing as you get there. Yeah, really helpful.

Laura Pepple:

Or what farmer doesn't want you to lay, lay hose out on their field, right? You know, that's, that's, that's always valid as well.

Dan Andersen:

All right, so we got some discussion there on dairy, a lot of that's going to apply for swine farms, but deep pit swine farms, we've talked a little bit about some of those low rates, are a little more of an adaptation to make our system function. What are the things we should be thinking about for swine farms in the future, knowing that these lower rates are probably going to continue? What can we do to gain some efficiency there?

Laura Pepple:

Swine farms are always a there they're kind of a challenge, right. There's such a unique set of them on the market, you know. There's there's really old facilities, there's really new facilities, there's a lot of opportunity there. I'd say that one thing that stays consistent, even in our industry, as you look at other industries, is equipment's not getting any smaller, right. Tractors aren't getting any smaller, our pumps aren't getting any smaller, so as you're doing site layout and thinking about this, don't forget that it's not just feed trucks that in semis, right, that have to have to navigate this site, so ensuring that you've got pump outs in the right locations, they're the right size. We still see some new swine facilities going up that have four foot by four foot pump outs, and that's that's a challenge. You've got especially if you've got a pump on the end of a boom that could, you know, it's sometimes it's it's a little tricky trying to get into that, or they just plain don't fit. We have found that, you know, even even for us, we've got that one site that was built in the 70s or 80s, and we have one pump that we can get down inside of it, and we have to keep that one pump for that one site to be able to get it down into the pit to extract that manure. Agitation is always important in thinking about that, and if there's ways that you can lay those pump outs out to help improve agitation in the way that can keep that that manure in suspension, or have those applicators come in in the off season and agitate, you know, mid year, right? So that you know things aren't settled quite as badly as they were. I mean, there's some, there's some innovative things out there that you can do from an agitation perspective, from a swine facility, you know, we talk about systems like mass agitation and in other systems like that. It's not super popular, but it works. I mean, it's something that that Puck's been facilitating for for over 10 years now, and we've never had somebody call back and say,'Ah, this system sucks, but the premise is, you know, the everybody wants to get all the gallons out of the barn and not leave the solids, and so anything that you can do to help facilitate that, so you know, larger pump outs, spacing between barns, right? So we had a gentleman come out and test a force feed just a couple of weeks ago, because he wanted to see that if he could park in the middle of these two barns with the boom going on both sides, right, and then all of a sudden you start thinking about, well, did they symmetrically line up the pump outs, so that that was that was possible, you know, because once you think about it, it once you start drag lining and you get your hose filled that's going to the field and now all of a sudden that barns empty, and you got to transition to another barn, you don't want to have to blow that whole whole line out. You'd rather just close a gate, move your boom over, and go right back to work, right? It goes back to that efficiency part. How do you, you know, get all these gallons out in this narrow window? That's one thing that's going to help us do that.

Dan Andersen:

Yeah, setup time is really critical, and these sound that sounds like a small change, but it saves you two hours, and two hours when you're flowing 1000 2000 gallons a minute add up really quick.

Laura Pepple:

Really quick. You know, in an ideal world, you wouldn't have multiple manure storages on the on the same site, but that's that's probably not an ideal world where the swine industry is going. I mean, we are seeing larger facilities, and we were seeing the double wides and the quads, and those are those are helpful, but they're they, when you do that, comfortable, and in a good environment, but I, you've got those divider walls that are in those pits. Just keep in mind that you know generally when a drag line is set up, we're not rotating around that barn to try and ensure that we're getting equal solids removal out of it. So when you've got those dividers and those pit walls, you know, making sure that they're they're prevalent and as big as you're willing to put them in, so that you get that transition of solids between those those rooms. you know, when you sit there and you look at a barn layout, and you've got a pump out, and right in the center, 10 feet in front of it, is a, is a pillar, like, darn.

Dan Andersen:

Yeah, and sometimes they have to be there, but if we can avoid, if we can lay out that pump out it's not aimed directly at a pillar, that's always, yeah, I've seen a few of those, I've also seen a few people on the pump outs themselves mark, don't aim here, there's a pillar there.

Laura Pepple:

Right? Right.

Dan Andersen:

Okay. And then you've given us a lot to think about in terms of efficiency, but do you have any other tips that you want to sort of mention there before we move on? And one thing I noted that I was supposed to say is the goal is isn't always just pumping fast, it's minimizing the moments were not pumping.

Laura Pepple:

Yes, right. So, going back to the comment you made on setup, and in that customer reference I made earlier, in regards to, you know, can we just.. is it easy enough just to move that boom over and keep right on on trucking with that that next barn again? I can't underemphasize or overemphasize the importance of planning and ensuring that you've got a plan going into these facilities and knowing what crop you're going on to and where those fields are and are they open, you're in constant communication with those farm managers to ensure that you know exactly what needs to happen. The other challenge that we see from an efficiency side, especially on sow facilities, is is you have to take into account the workers that are in those, those facilities, right? And a lot of times we can't do anything until they're gone. One of the things, at least, that you know with the sow facilities that we work with and apply is we understand they probably have a day's worth of work in that barn, but if there's any way possible that we can get started by nine or 10 o'clock in the morning, we'd love to, because we'll get out of your hair, we can get that barn done, and in a day if we can get started. So, the odds are when you show up to work the next morning, we're gone, but you know it's being able to have those conversations in advance and knowing what time you're going to be able to start and when you can get there and taking in those considerations as well.

Dan Andersen:

Yeah, and I think we talked about that drive for bigger capacity often on the maybe application in sort of the season window that we're looking at, but that's another great reason why there's been a push for bigger capacity, just downtime operation time in these facilities.

Laura Pepple:

Yep.

Dan Andersen:

There's real things that need to happen there and they need to get back.

Laura Pepple:

That's right.

Dan Andersen:

So, if we can get out of their way, that's the best for them. I wanted to finish up talking about maybe where the industry is headed, and some things that you've seen. So, what technologies right now are really changing dragline systems from your perspective?

Laura Pepple:

I really think right now it's less on the technology side and more on the scale. Just the scale of new facilities, especially on the dairy side, that are going in and being able to keep up with that scale from a sizing perspective. We haven't seen a ton of movement in the industry on 12 inch hose, but I think we're going to see it this year, and I think that demand is going to continue to increase, and making sure that, that not only is our equipment ready for it, but our customers are ready and educated in regards to how best to handle, use, and operate those larger, larger scale systems.

Dan Andersen:

And to that point, when you go to 12 inch hose, it's not just as simple as, well, there's 12 inch hose, it's the flow rate in the pumps, it's what do I have to move this hose around, right? It all has to come together.

Laura Pepple:

Yes, yes. And then again, being able to optimize the efficiency of how we utilize, you know, that that larger scale equipment, and even more so on the smaller scale, with how often you have to move and do those setups, because that is the biggest draw in your time, is is those setups and moves between sites, and again, just staying on top of it and having a plan in place to to be able to accomplish that.

Dan Andersen:

Is that one of the things you really think separates the best crews, the ones who get the most gallons pumped in the days they have available, is just sort of that planning in the off season?

Laura Pepple:

I really do think it is. I think what what separates the average from from the top is the training program that they put their guys through, the emphasis on on safety and the amount of planning that they do in advance to set those crews up for success. A lot of guys out there, a lot of operators are no different than us. We run up to five crews a year, depending on on the demand at that time, and ensuring you know that that application manager can't be in all places, and in our case likely not even in the same state, so you really want those crew leaders to have a handle and the confidence to be able to do things the safe way, the efficient way, and the right way, and so ensuring that that you're setting your folks up for success is just as important as the pieces of equipment that you give them to work with.

Dan Andersen:

Perfect, and I think the piece of equipment is important. It really sets a baseline, but, like you said, the other minutes of moving stuff around, getting to the next site, they really do eat up a lot of time in the season, for better or worse, and being efficient with those is really what drives us forward.

Laura Pepple:

Absolutely.

Dan Andersen:

All right, and I asked you, what you thought was happening today, and you told me a great answer there. Where do you think we're headed in the next 10 years? What's the things that you're excited to start seeing on the horizon?

Laura Pepple:

I think the, boy, you're asking the tough questions for somebody that's in supply chain and not engineering. I do think that we're going to see advancements on the technology side. I do think that we're going to see a drive for a need on improving the control systems that are on these units. We've got some innovative things happening, at least at Puck, that aren't quite ready to release, but we're excited about. I think, allowing the larger scale of these pieces of equipment is not allowing, but setting, setting them up right, so that the operators can be safe and successful when operating and making them easy to use and intentional in doing so.

Dan Andersen:

I think that's a great answer. I think you told us that the crew leader needs to really be set up for success, but unfortunately we do often see a lot of turnover on crews, and especially on the rest of the crew, you need that one person who's really ready to be the crew operator, the onsite lead, but the other guys are just as important and have to get a lot done.

Laura Pepple:

That's right. I mean, I would like to sit here and say that, you know, being in the manure industry, that we're going to drive the technology advances on that side, but you know as well as I do that the animal technology is going to grow a whole lot faster than the manure technology. We're going to do our best to push it right and be the leading edge innovators on that front, but you know we don't always get the opportunity to lend feedback as to how would you lay out this site, or you know, is there any way you can put all the manure in one hole, so that we only have to go to one hole, right? And I don't know that from that perspective there's much that we truly, in most cases, have the ability to contribute to, but I think on the on the equipment side, we're going to continue to advance the equipment to make it cost-effective, easy to use, and safe to use for customers, as well as is setting them up for success to be able to hit the application rates and the flow rates that they're, they need to hit to be most successful in their business to generate the most ROI for them.

Dan Andersen:

Love that answer. And then I have one question. Now, since we've been talking there, I'm going to get off script a little bit, but you've pointed out that we're trying to get sites done faster. It's a necessity to get sites done faster. How do we keep pace with agitation to make those solids get to suspended?

Laura Pepple:

That's a great question. I think if you go back and look, you know, as we started this podcast, we talked about flow rates going from six to 800 gallon a minute to now we've got guys that are accomplishing, you know, close to 6000 gallons a minute routinely, and I think when we saw that initial jump is what caused some of these solids issues in these deep pits to begin with, because we're, we're, we're selling it so fast and aren't able to keep up. I think currently the industry standard is throw more agitators at it, and I don't know that that's the great answer, right? It's the easy answer.

Dan Andersen:

It's the answer we know right now.

Laura Pepple:

It is, and especially if you got the ability to have those extra assets on hand, that's not always going to be the case. And I think that's where we go back to producers and say, is there any way that you know you can set these barns up to where you know you can make it easier for us. A simple idea or thought could be that you know you've got a pump out on one end and a pump out on the other, and we lay a lay flat hose from one end to the other, so at least we're cycling manure and pushing all of those solids from one end to the the other. That's similar to how our mass agitation systems work, but it's effective, right? And keeping the solids out of that facility and trying to keep them in suspension. The other ways that you can go about it is there's no rule to say you can only agitate when you're applying, right? So you can agitate in the off season, and any time that you, you take that opportunity to agitate mid season, when there's no pressure to pull liquid out of that barn, you're going to keep those things in suspension a whole lot longer. I mean, your larger particles are always going to settle back out, but it kind of keeps things fluffy, I guess. Is a good way to say it, which makes it easier to get out of that barn, because I think that's going to continue if they, if they continue to do as well as they're doing on the water conservation side. It's going to be a whole new challenge on those deep pits, is how do we do that? I think the manure foaming issue that we've, we've seen off and on throughout the years is somewhat assisted with that. If you can agree with that statement, I mean, it does help.

Dan Andersen:

It leads to fluffy solids that it does pump out.

Laura Pepple:

It does. We don't want the safety concerns or the challenges that come with it, but it certainly, it certainly helped keep things fluffy. And I like, say, there's there's a lot of opportunities there, but there's definitely no rules to say that you can't agitate mid season or in between season and the off season. Keep those guys busy, but also make your lives a little easier when it comes to removal.

Dan Andersen:

Perfect, and the truth is there's lots of things that we haven't even thought about, like the systems could look vastly different tomorrow than they did today, and 10 years is a long time away, but we do know that generally equipment's gotten bigger. We've had to get more efficient at getting those gallons out more quickly, and those trends probably will continue.

Laura Pepple:

I think so as well.

Dan Andersen:

All right. Thank you so much for joining me, Laura. I really appreciate the conversation. Always great to have a chance to talk manure with you. And if there's any last word, now's your chance.

Laura Pepple:

Well, Dan, I just want to thank you, and everything ISU Extension does, not only for the manure industry, but the state in general. I know sometimes it's an underappreciated asset to the state, but it's something that we at Puck, we see and recognize on a regular basis, and we want to thank you and your team for all the work you guys do.

Dan Andersen:

Well, I appreciate that, and I'll be sure to save that one and pass it up the chain, because I can always use good comments like that. Thanks so much, Laura. Thank you for joining this installment of

Laura Pepple:

Thanks, Dan. Talkin' Crap. Be sure to take a look at the show notes on our website for links and materials mentioned in the episode. For more information or to get in touch, go to our website, www.extension.ia state.edu/immag/. If you found what you heard today useful, or it made you think, we hope you subscribe to the show on your podcast app of choice. Signing off from a job that sometimes smells, but never stinks. Keep on talking crap.